The Future in Focus: AI Tools That Forecast Business Opportunities w/Saar Ben-Attar

00:00.00 danchez Welcome back to the Ai driven marketer I'm danchez and today I'm excited to talk about how Ai can impact your strategic planning? Yes, so I'm talking to our guest. 00:14.37 danchez Ah, Sar Benatar at the founder of ascent growth partners where we're collaborating on this custom gpt. We've been working on so Sar Welcome to the show. 00:20.37 Saar Ben_Attar Thank you, Thank you? Then it's great to be here. 00:23.78 danchez I Know just a few months ago we were introduced by a mutual friend to work on this collaborative project where we've been building this I don't know this ah scenario planner in a custom gp in order to kind of predict the future for businesses and not predict it but build the scenarios of the future. Before we dive into the tech and how the Ai works I'd love to know a little bit more about where this process even came from for your consultancy like where did you start developing in the ability and the service offering that you have in order to help clients see different future scenarios. 00:44.21 Saar Ben_Attar I. 00:50.74 Saar Ben_Attar But. 00:59.46 Saar Ben_Attar 100% so a little bit of background on us. We are a growth and innovation consultancy very much operating in the with firms in the broader ecosystem. So so we like to venture and explore and find the opportunity. In the spaces in which firms are are trying to venture into or growing into identifying opportunities beyond the current operations were based both in South Africa where I'm calling you in from as well as in Singapore. And in both markets what we found both both in Asia Middle East Africa and even in North America where we have some clients what we do find irrespective of geography is that the the anticipation of the future is something that has been with us as human beings since the early start. You know I've some time back I've written a chapter for for a dear friend and ah and and a fellow a foresight professional and and she asked me to write this chapter about the history of of foresight. How do we go and and and why do we anticipate and what I found is irrespective of. Ancient cultures and middle ages industrial era now in in in the postindustrial area and the knowledge economy. We still find that the need for individuals. The needs of teams and organization to make sense of the future but knowing that we can't predict the future. 02:31.93 Saar Ben_Attar Is is an important consideration now. It's not 1 perhaps to 1 of our earlier conversations that's been given a lot of attention in in in resources often we find these are small teams either from a strategy background or a business transformation background. Or or sometimes from the outside who have kind of joined the organization in whatever form or collaborating with the organization in some form because there's a business challenge that the organization is struggling to solve and in order to solve that challenge. We've got to peer into the future. Not for accuracy not to know for sure that this is the exact reality that will happen but rather to say if our current reality evolves into this. How would we thrive under this scenario because it might just be possible. It's a plausible scenario some of the scenarios are even earringly similar to what our current reality is but with a twist with with a refinement with new and and and additional drivers that come into the mix. And and therefore our ability to respond and to remain resilient and ultimately to thrive in those scenarios is absolutely absolutely critical and that's kind of been the context for us the 1 big question that we couldn't solve for until we got involved specifically with Ai Technologies 04:01.70 Saar Ben_Attar Is how do we do this in real-time in in a nice imaginary world or in the world. Pre-covid to a large extent in many industries one could develop scenarios one could develop contingency plans in your own time in parallel to how the business operates we were working within. Ah, quite clearly laid out parameters the business cycle the strategic planning process and what could keep to those and said well that's an interesting point. Why don't we keep it to the next cycle. Why don't we look at it on next when we look at the or refine or update our strategic plan in today's reality post-covid. And and and generally when we look at the extent to which the environment is changing every industry we look at even some of the of the most traditional and and established industries out there a primary energy infrastructure. You know, basic services wherever you touch. You don't have to yeah you can venture way beyond tech. We found that the ability to develop these scenarios the ability to peer into the future and say is my business plan still relevant. Do I still thrive if that happens because I might be seeing the early signs of it already. What happens if it keeps growing into that are we still sound is our business plan still sound or do we need to make changes today to be ready for that kind of a future and similarly organizations would ask us the question. Well what happens if we venture into this new opportunity area. 05:37.80 Saar Ben_Attar What what does the future hold in that space it it evolves quickly and therefore could we make sense of it and and the answer was only if it's done in real time only if we could do it in a matter of hours or a number of sessions rather than. 05:40.55 danchez Um, yeah. 05:53.90 Saar Ben_Attar Well I need weeks or months at a time which is the old model by which we used to do scenarios so the shift from parallel a slow progressive development of scenarios into multiple. Real-time scenario development was the real paradigm shift for us and that's where the conversations with clients with business partners became very focused around Could we use this to solve this problem because that particular problem is hitting us now in our business plan. It's not being realized. We're not getting to the hang of it and we need to do it differently. 06:31.80 danchez While strategic planning is 1 of those larger things that is usually handled in the csuite because it impacts every area of the business I find as a marketer that I'm pulled into those meetings often if I'm working within ah a leadership team just because marketers you know may Mark it's in the name. It's like. The more I can pay attention to the market and predict where the market's going to go the better I can lead the company because revenue is one of the biggest things a company company cares about and operates around so I know it's a topic that I've it's been kind of near and dear to my heart because marketers kind of get rewarded for. 06:53.25 Saar Ben_Attar Are. 07:03.63 danchez Being able to better predict where the market's going to go and adjust accordingly because marketing is a little bit more long range focus than something like sales. Um, so when you were showing me your plan I've just been learning a ton from even your process and even how to better see the future by taking current trends and then even. 07:04.59 Saar Ben_Attar Yes. 07:23.30 danchez Pitting 2 trends together to see what possible scenarios we might end up if a particular 2 different trends. Let's say like the rise of Ai you know, goes fast or slows down or if something like. 07:35.92 Saar Ben_Attar Um. 07:36.61 danchez Ah, hits another trend that might be kind of unrelated maybe like the the ongoing conflict in the Middle East you know, picking up or going down and what four scenarios we might run into that. Ah, it actually paints a better picture of what could be so that you can find the hidden. 07:43.47 Saar Ben_Attar Um. 07:53.36 danchez Opportunities and possible threats in the different scenarios something else. You said about making the ai tool more relevant is this the speed ah that we need to be doing strategic planning now I've heard it said that like what we were doing for annual strategic planning now needs to be done at a quarterly level and quarterly level down to the monthly level because it's just moving too fast. But. 07:55.19 Saar Ben_Attar Breath. 08:13.25 danchez I can imagine after learning your process for doing that I'm like yeah that would that'd be problematic at the quarterly level because by the time it was done. You'd be spending the whole quarter planning and then as soon as it was done. You'd be replanning again. 08:23.46 Saar Ben_Attar Well, you know then it's such such a good point. Ultimately what we strive for is continuous a strategy because Strategy is really a cycle that we could ideally we should move very quickly from exploring diagnosing. 08:28.78 danchez Yeah, yeah. 08:39.57 Saar Ben_Attar Assessing developing solution and testing and in the market very quickly. So it's a continuous process That's a live process but in order to do that. You need the right tools and that's where this kind of of adaptive and in continuous process really comes from. 08:47.60 danchez Um, yeah. 08:54.74 Saar Ben_Attar But I to go back to something that you've said and and why this conversation is so important for marketers and that is that those trends that we spoke about those those signals out there in the market are not only affecting your own organization. Yes, we could have a conversation about how the conflict in the Middle East and whether it. Expands into a fully regional war or even have broader consequences and could be impacting your business That's the one conversation. But how about the conversation about how is it affecting your customers. How is it affecting the end users of your products. 09:15.39 danchez Um, yeah. 09:25.89 danchez Um, yeah. 09:28.84 Saar Ben_Attar And that's where really interesting conversations. Take place. It doesn't just affect the the obvious things that you might think about such as the propensity to buy for example based on the change in in price of fuel or. Or the availability of products based on what supply chain changes take place. It affects the propensity to pay the propensity to take on debt the propensity to share with others your purchase and and to learn together with others in communities. Based on the level of trust that you have all of these seemingly unrelated phenomena actually have an impact and that's where scenarios can get really really interesting and that's where I think the power of this for marketers becomes real and very tangible because if you can bring that outside. Evolving view of the market. Not just based on past trends what is economic cycle like what will interest rates do Etc, etc. How will a consumer appetite evolve based on known trends. But if you introduce some of those new trends if you introduce. Things that are not all known knowns into a scenario you can play into scenarios that are very different. 1 of our conversations for example, then we spoke about the propensity or the growth in in buy now pay later solutions. It's a great example in a consumer space of exactly what's happening. What's really affecting. 11:00.15 Saar Ben_Attar The the buy now pay later phenomena is not just what we know which is it's particularly used by millennials. it's it's it's the almost the the reaction to over indebtedness and and in many cases, the insufficient. A clarity of of the regulatory landscape and it evolving only recently to adapt. It's the news. Things. For example, one of the key trends affecting that particular market opportunity and I'm very conscious that particular segment is growing in double digits in many countries around the world is the fact that. The propensity of consumers to use or adopt these kinds of solutions alternative lending solutions. In fact, are very much predicated on the use of Ai technologies on the ability of Ai to automate the process. So the decisions around. Credit provision around which consumers get offered. What is no longer a human decision and and and and there's a whole plethora of factors that that affect that now when you start to have that conversation. What will the adoption of Generative ai for example, look like two years three years from now. How would it affect the way that you as a marketer interact with your end users or by the way in the context of this particular product. That's when things get really really interesting and if you're able to test that in live format if you're able to test it even on a panel involving actual customers. 12:31.42 Saar Ben_Attar In Trade partners. That's when it gets very interesting and we saw a tremendous speed the kind of progress that one could make the old paradigms start to break and you start to introduce some new ones into the mix and and are able to test them in in real time. 12:49.44 danchez What I love about your scenario builder and this was the process that you had built ah prior prior to it building or using Ai in order to accelerate the process but it really is painting a picture of the future. It's not like it's using a lot of. Quantitative analysis though it is analyzing like the scenarios and thinking through like what the implications would be but it's actually a creative process that it's running through in order to paint a picture of what the future might look like if these 2 scenario or trends continue running strong what then does it look like. 13:12.44 Saar Ben_Attar Early. 13:21.29 Saar Ben_Attar Exactly. 13:23.60 danchez In the future in in this particular economy and some of the things that you have on here is like what does it look like economically what does it look like technologically socially politically work life financial services. It even goes on to say like how did we get here like how do we? What could accelerate or slow down this scenario. 13:29.30 Saar Ben_Attar Um. 13:34.97 Saar Ben_Attar Same. 13:41.20 danchez Ah, what does it look like two years five years ten years down the line all in an attempt to help paint a picture It's really a storytelling device and I love how it's creative and imaginative in a good way and helping you get outside of your head and what you think the likely scenario is into different scenarios that maybe you hadn't considered. And we're maybe blind to because you might be so clouded on what is probably the scenario you think is going to happen. Um, and I just found it to be a very useful tool even for myself thinking about where I might be like 105 years down to um, where with future scenarios playing out right now I've been using it even to plan my own future because it's. 14:00.72 Saar Ben_Attar Um. 14:19.23 danchez It's such a helpful tool in helping me understand what different realities might be. 14:24.45 Saar Ben_Attar Then it's it's ah it's such a good point and and I'm glad that you're using it even in your own personal capacity because that's the I know that actually it sticks. That's when I know that it's actually valuable to the person rather than just the organization I mean the 1 thing I think to keep in mind is that. And and if I take you kind of back. You know the use of scenario planning has been around for centuries. But it's been kind of formalized in particular since just before world war two and after world war ii we started seeing tremendous uptake of scenario planning. And and the whole science and discipline behind it and in in the us the Rand Corporation was one of the kind of the fundamental kind of drivers behind the use and adoption of of scenario planning and later organizations like shell who took it much more into a private sector form. But. Just kind of stuck for a moment on the rane corporation and the fundamental role. They've played 1 of the godfathers of of scenario planning kind of put it so nicely and this is um I mean I've got to take him back to the 1960 s where he said very succinctly said in scenario planning got to imagine the unimaginable. Ah, think of that for a moment if we have a tool that allows us to step into a different space so we can imagine the unimaginable this is unimaginable because of a particular context you're in because of a. 15:38.57 danchez Um. 15:52.97 Saar Ben_Attar Blind spots that we've developed within our organizations because in past years someone decided that's a no, we don't venture here or that's not economically feasible and what technology and what much more nuanced understanding of of customers market is now able to tap into. Is that it helps to to have all of these paradigms tested in some cases replaced by better paradigms and I think the role of the market is fundamental because if you can bring in the understanding and appreciation for the data with that creative slant. Then I think you you you bring real competitive advantage into the process because ultimately imagining the unimaginable is a creative act. We could talk about what Ai could do 10 years from now. But I still think that we are decades away from a machine that will be able to step in. Is creatively as us now does that mean that generative Ai cannot be used now I think it could be pretty creative but it helps us to become more creative. It helps trigger in us the the thinking that goes beyond the current paradigm that we're locked into and said what would you do here. And that's where the human being steps in and that's where I think marketers could play a tremendous role in getting all of us to become more creative in this process. 17:18.48 danchez When did you realize that Ai was going to be the possible solution in order to speed up this process. 17:27.77 Saar Ben_Attar Um, so I guess there's 2 answers to it I guess the sneaking suspicion I had was pretty much at the beginning because I started seeing ai throwing back to us perspectives that. As a human being I had to take 2 or 3 steps to get there I had to say well explain to me how you got to this point and the good thing about generative ai is that you can exactly pose that question and say show me the logical steps. How did you get to that scenario. How did you get to that conclusion. How did you get to that narrative. But. When it really landed for me was if you recall as part of our process. We've added a particular step to it. It really crystallized it for me and that step was what historical comparative what historical a situation. Is indicative of this scenario of the future and I remember the one time I was looking at it and we're actually looking at at the development of of financial services and and related digital solutions in an emerging market and I remember 1 of the answers that the chat did. Generative ai the custom gp came back with was Japan and going through its debt crisis and the effect it had on consumers for years to come and I remember I had to stop myself for a moment and said how did you get from country x all the way back to Japan. 18:42.90 danchez Um. 18:53.70 Saar Ben_Attar It's like a ten thousand kilometer geographical difference in two and a half decades going on 3 in fact, that leap is more than just a chance and that's why I realized that actually the custom gp in its brute. Computing force was actually. Developing and exploring potentialities well into the future. It's it's very similar if if I take you kind of back and you know the moment when deep thought that computer program by Ibm Beat gary casperov in chess and you remember there was a moment in in that game. 19:24.53 danchez And yep. 19:32.64 Saar Ben_Attar Gary Casperov got very frustrated and later in an interview. We explained what happened he actually realized that. However, he how many moves he thought into the future. This custom program was thinking more steps. In fact, in some cases 15 or more steps into the future. 19:48.25 danchez Down. 19:50.61 Saar Ben_Attar And that got him at a very human level very frustrated. He suddenly realized that the computer could do things that even he as the grand master of chess couldn't do. That's the moment I had with. This custom gp that suddenly know and and this is based on on chatt g p t four we haven't even seen chatt g p t five within a year we're going to have it or let's so even with today's technology suddenly I realized that the kind of connections that this custom gpt is is is putting together. 20:07.00 danchez Right? right. 20:21.53 Saar Ben_Attar Is well beyond the obvious as well. Beyond the anticipated of what I thought was possible but it was creating those connections that was going way beyond and that for me is where creativity steps in that's where the the custom gp becomes helpful for us as professionals. To go? Well, let's play into that scenario. What could Japan teach us about today's consumers in the market Ten Thousand kilometers away 20:51.38 danchez Now I love the way I someone said and ah the previous episode to this one I had a guest on that said that chat Gpt and custom gpts in particular is the excel to the Ai generation or to the ai world like excel became an open. 20:58.21 Saar Ben_Attar Um. 21:07.92 danchez And open tool that you could do lots of things with plan vacations build budgets ah forecast the future like you could do a lot with excel that was an open-ended tool that could be used to build and Mvps and many other tools and that's what we're seeing with chat Gp now now with custom gpt. We can actually. 21:08.50 Saar Ben_Attar Yes, yes. 21:25.79 danchez Wrap a model around it which is when chat gpt becomes very powerful if you can give it an existing model or a step-by-step process. All of a sudden you're getting Ai to honestly act more human because you're training it to take not just because you could just ask it hey. 21:28.75 Saar Ben_Attar So. 21:37.22 Saar Ben_Attar And. 21:44.22 danchez Here's the business build a scenario that helps me understand the different impacts different these 3 trends and it would it would be okay, but the fact that you had a proven process for doing this and how to take baby steps into building. It is what makes this thing work really well and I think is the big opportunity with ai. Um, currently is taking proven processes and then injecting ai where it is capable of actually filling in the gaps of what humans used to do but now Ai can do it because it's capable of filling in the gaps and thinking through like okay if these are the parameters here's here I can fill I could could fill in those gaps. 22:05.19 Saar Ben_Attar So. 22:18.76 Saar Ben_Attar This. 22:20.72 danchez Um, which is why I knew when we were talking to the initial stages I'm like this is possible. Not even with future tech with current tech. It's possible to use and fill in to build out these scenarios in a way that's actually useful I've learned a lot from you the way you interact with that's different because usually the way I interact with it is very straightforward because I help. 22:29.34 Saar Ben_Attar Yeah, Mark. 22:38.60 Saar Ben_Attar Are. 22:38.82 danchez Build the steps that it run follows but you throw curveballs at it all the time and I'm always like interested to see you're like throwing in extra questions into the process and the fun thing about Ai is it's it's fairly flexible like in the old code world you threw curveballs into it man. That's when programs broke but Ai. 22:50.00 Saar Ben_Attar Right. 22:58.29 danchez It doesn't always it doesn't always hit the ball out of the park but it will take its best attempt at dealing with extra data that you've just given it or a different direction. Maybe you're put nudging it into and try to fill in the gap. Still um and that's where the tool is really really helpful because you can. Customize the parameters even as it's prompting you with a very specific error give me this and then I'll give you that kind of a ah conversation. 23:16.84 Saar Ben_Attar Your. Absolutely you know I mean the the example of exile that you give is such a good one because I remember when when I kind of first came across I think it wasn't even Microsoftl. It was lotus notes and and there was another product that not even being used to that I don't think it survived into the. 23:38.24 danchez Um. 23:41.56 Saar Ben_Attar The 2000. But if you think of it today's excel is not fundamentally different than the excel we had in the late eighty s early 90 s the computer power of course is much more but pretty much it's the same thing you but as you know a spreadsheet of of various cells. You can put formulas in there. You can put text you. Colorrate you can format it you got macros that you can automate some of it but the fundamental building blocks are the fundamental use for it is still very similar that versatility that we first kind of got it got unleashed on to us in that first generation you speak about is still available to us today. And and that for me says that you don't have to go 5 new generations into the future. You don't have to kind of I mean I'm reading Mustafa Suleiman's book now about the future of Ai the the waves of Ai that are coming at us and in my response to to the book. it's it's a wonderful book he's the head of Ai for Microsoft and and it's a great read. We really a worthwhile read but I would hate for people to come out of it and and think of it as a future shock or my word we haven't even mastered Ai version 1 now or version 2 now we've got more waves coming and and my answer to it is think of excel. 24:50.98 danchez Um, yeah. 24:58.18 Saar Ben_Attar Yes, they are far more sophisticated tools that one could use to digest analyze and use data in the all of their space but you still use xam for good reason. There's a lot of that versatility brings in and I think that's the power that. Again, marketers could bring into the use of of current level custom gpt. The fact that computing power is going to grow by multiples in the next few years that's an that's an added bonus and I can throw a 500 page or a 300 page book at at custom gp and it would die. 25:21.71 danchez Um, yeah. 25:37.24 Saar Ben_Attar Digest it as quickly as it now digests a 10 page pdf summary or a 30 page annual report but the underlying functionality is still there and that kind of brings me into the into the some additional benefits of of the tool as as I found and. 25:39.94 danchez Um, yeah. 25:54.46 Saar Ben_Attar And and have to be I have to be kind of acknowledged that you have an asked about my history but I actually started off in in a marketing role. Um I studied marketing at my University years and and and fell in love with it and and it was one of these things that. 26:00.88 danchez Oh nice. 26:10.30 Saar Ben_Attar I Saw immediately the link between marketing and strategy our marketers and their understanding of the market and of customers can bring insights into strategy that just it was in the class it was grasped by by by you know, chartered accountants and and lawyers in those days. 26:12.84 danchez Oh yeah. 26:28.57 Saar Ben_Attar Suddenly marketers could bring a flair and a creativity and new insights into the realm of strategy. So that's kind of where I started that does kind of my my my first kind of role and in in a few others and but if I think of it with that context the kind of benefits that. Tools such as custom gpt such as this bring is not just in in testing our paradigms not just getting us to think differently so or even become as a secondary benefit second benefit more creative in the way we step into scenarios and ask the what if questions. It also gets us to be more critical. It gets us to be more critical critical of our understanding of customers or our understanding of behavior and of at some point saying I actually don't know the answer to this. But oh boy, if someone can get us to understand the space. Be wonderful. We've just hit the checkpot. We just understood what we didn't know that we didn't know and that's the realm that I think marketers could really thriving because we deal with a lot of spaces that are unknown to the organization and. 27:31.92 danchez And. 27:39.77 Saar Ben_Attar And I guess a final benefit of and it kind of relates to the speed is now marketers can get involved in the actual commercialization process. It's 1 thing to sit as the advisor in saying hey there's a segment here that's being underserved. There's a behavior of customers that we can actually respond to really well what are we doing in this space now with these kinds of real-time tools marketers can get steeped into the actual commercialization drive and say what is it pilot telling us now let's take the results and take it back to this generative ai tool and ask a few more questions. Um, and for me that has real power in it now you're in the engine room of of generating new revenues in a way that marketers and certainly in in my understanding in my earlier years of of being steeped into marketing before strategy. And that was one of the things that I really missed. 28:33.72 danchez Yeah, Peter Drucker has one of my favorite quotes on marketing says because the purpose of business is to create a customer the business enterprise has 2 and only two basic functions marketing and innovation. Those are the 2 things. 28:44.89 Saar Ben_Attar Yeah, absolutely. 28:48.67 danchez Because we're creating customers and it's funny I I got so obsessed with marketing that I just kept digging a hole deeper and deeper I found I popped out the other side and I was in a whole different world called entrepreneurship because it was all about discerning markets and that's where entrepreneurship starts is discerning a market and then capitalizing on it right. 28:59.10 Saar Ben_Attar Um, with. 29:08.34 danchez And which is what you're talking about in the capitalization where like if you go deep enough in the marketing. This is the place you end up playing you start trying to essentially forecast the future where the market's going so that you can bring the most economic value to a particular market in order to grow a profit. Hopefully the. 29:12.34 Saar Ben_Attar This. 29:25.62 Saar Ben_Attar Um, exactly. 29:27.38 danchez Win-win for everybody. Um, and that's the exciting place to really really play. It's kind of looking at the future and finding out where you can create win-win scenarios for everybody involved. Um, now that you've had this chat? Yeah, this custom gpt in order to build out scenarios. What are some of the feedback you've seen. 29:36.19 Saar Ben_Attar Um, absolutely. 29:46.81 danchez As you've shown it to others. 29:48.87 Saar Ben_Attar Ah, it's a great question. A couple of things immediately come to mind I think firstly is interest the number of people that have come to us and said yeah I want to be in the next webinar I want to learn more about this I want I want to understand this better as been. Amazing has been absolutely incredible and and remember our our community of ceos and senior leaders has grown extensively as a result of that because of that interest that's the first thing that we've seen the second thing that we've seen is is that. People are much more open in talking about their generative Ai experience or generally they are experience in the past what I found. There's almost this aura of you know the fear of missing out. So so people would play with chat gpd as an example I mean there are many tools out there and. 30:27.34 danchez Move. 30:34.98 danchez M. 30:43.71 Saar Ben_Attar But they would play with it almost in their personal capacity on the side without telling their colleagues and and therefore couldn't really benchmark how well they were doing how productive they've been it was kind of a conversation that you might have next to the you know to to the to the to the. 30:53.80 danchez You know? yep. 31:02.66 Saar Ben_Attar And water cooler or to to the coffee machine or to or by your next Starbucks experience but it wouldn't be 1 that you would have openly in organizations. What I found is since we started using this custom gpd the conversation. The number of people who stepped out and said hey you know what. 31:04.13 danchez Um, yeah. 31:22.23 Saar Ben_Attar Last Quarter I've actually used something like that. But I wasn't able to achieve this in our scenario. How do you do this and for me, that's so wonderful to watch because now you, you're actually finding the many more practitioners of artificial intelligence in Organizations. We're just not used to calling them that. They's still the marketer the operations guy the the you know et Cetera the finance executive and and therefore we kind of the conversation doesn't take place openly and that's really changing and that's very heartwarming. 31:54.91 danchez I'm still I'm still even on my own journey trying to figure out because I've taken to Ai in helping build things like this but a lot of people have and even some of my tech savvy friends that were comfortable with setting up complex automation sequences and dealing with tech. 32:05.92 Saar Ben_Attar Um. 32:09.50 danchez There's something different about those who gravitate towards building Ai and I'm not sure if it's more engineering minded. That's how I feel about it. But I don't know how other people feel about it I think that's still emerging still we're still learning what what does it take to even get Ai to do it would do what you need to do I do find that it. Engineering makes the most sense because you have specific inputs you're trying to get a specific output and then you're trying to figure out. Not how just the prompt but it truly is prompt engineering trying to figure out how to ask the right questions in the right way at the right time in the right sequence in order to help guide it through a very human thinking process. Ah. 32:28.46 Saar Ben_Attar Move. 32:47.54 danchez But I'm still learning and I think that's it's part of the fun of the whole thing is that there's still so many unknowns and we all get to explore it and kind of talk about it together as we all learn it. 32:52.80 Saar Ben_Attar Um, exactly well maybe I could just add 1 more thing to it and that's the thing that often as marketers. We don't talk about so I'm going to step into the world of finance remember the word valuations. So here's an example, we've been working with a client some time back. 33:09.66 danchez Um. 33:12.22 Saar Ben_Attar And they were looking to step into a new space. They had to understand the market they had to understand consumers they had to understand how they interact and one of the things that we found out is that as this is the space of of the energy transition and and now people need to use digital tools and and and they need to understand how they. Produce and consume electricity and this became a new space for everyone for consumers for generators for utilities for a lot of intermediaries in between for tech companies for digital service providers for telcos who are providing the connectivity amongst all these role players in this ecosystem. And as we're kind of sketching how big this ecosystem is and how rich it is in potential solutions in in needs that are not being served as yet. The 1 thing that came to our to to ah to our minds is that. In fact, the valuation of these new opportunity spaces is actually. Much higher in in the first few years especially when the fast followers entered the market and and very often we tend to look at the value of a market. Much later in its maturity when they when when the early adopters are in and some of the even the late adopters are in and you look at the total size. The addressable side of the market and say that's what the market is worth and therefore as a consequence of it. This is what our organization is worth this is the kind of premium that investors will be willing to. 34:38.53 danchez Um, and then. 34:39.69 Saar Ben_Attar Attached to our organization. What we found is in new market spaces in market spaces that are generally disrupted by technology like as happening along the energy transition in multiple stages that is actually incorrect what we found was that a lot of the value gets generated. Earlier on in the process and therefore by being a fast follower if you're able to capture on to that. Even if we're still at your point still learning still figuring out. What's the most efficient way of getting there. The ones who were active participants in that market. We willing to realize not just ultimately the number of users active users but were able to engage in mman activity were able to grab onto capabilities earlier on and and commercialize them. Those were the firms. Those were the organization that ultimately when you take it over a ten or fifteen year period were the most valuable and and I think there's a lesson in that is that almost it doesn't matter which discipline you start whether you're the engineer or the corporate finance person or the manda in the suit. 35:34.92 danchez Yeah, yeah. 35:48.28 Saar Ben_Attar And or whatever or the strategist that's kind of wondering what the next business model would look like or the market are looking at Consumer Data you all have an opportunity to participate if you can recognize that the underlying value. Is changing because of what now we're able to do with this technology and the shifts are tremendous if I could just use. Maybe just as a last point just one number and and I generally don't like to to quote mckinsey but I'm going to quote them on this. They had a study recently where they looked at the. Call it. The integrated Network economy they're looking at these new market spaces where we now need to understand consumers must be much better and in real time in figuring out the right network the right ecosystem to serve them and very often that takes you beyond your immediate Organization. You can't do everything yourself. The value they attach to this integrated Network economy is over $80000000000000 and they said when in the next 2 or 3 decades this is going to become a reality and you're already seeing signs of this again. It goes back to that point of play early participate a. 36:54.61 danchez Um, yeah. 36:59.90 Saar Ben_Attar Find your own best applications for this and be very real with yourself and your team as to what business problem you're trying to solve because the biggest valuation shifts are happening now and over the next decade and that's something that even is marketers not just as fine as individuals or ceos who need to keep in mind. 37:01.20 danchez Um, yeah, yeah. 37:16.74 danchez Find the ones who make the maps also make the rules they're the ones who had to cut through the Bush and therefore they got to cut the path the way they saw fit and that happens in technology of course but it also happens in the realm of thought leadership. 37:18.99 Saar Ben_Attar Yeah, exactly exactly? yeah. 37:32.55 Saar Ben_Attar Exactly. 37:34.59 danchez If you were the one who minted the terms then and pop youized is the point you actually led people with like no this is this is the way that it works or this is how I've categorized. The things there's other ways to do it. But this the way I did it. You tend to have written the playbook on how to do it which is the one everybody else references later even if they go off on their own. Um, and that can happen in a macro sense like a thought leader across an industry but it can happen in a micro sense within a company. You could be the first one maybe others have pioneered it outside and you're just taking their playbook pioneering it on the inside within ah even a large company and you are the go to person on that topic or for that software or for that new thing. 38:01.65 Saar Ben_Attar Expecting. 38:08.42 Saar Ben_Attar Early natural problems. 38:13.40 danchez Whatever it is everybody will go to you because you're the one who's led the way and therefore you get to kind of write the rules within the organization on that particular topic. Whether it's Ai or not that's that's kind of my my learning so far which is why I'm like well this that's why it's exciting for me and why I'm doing this podcast interview those who are doing doing. 38:22.86 Saar Ben_Attar And that like. 38:33.20 danchez Good stuff with Ai now and to document a few of my learnings along the way. Um, but I have to ask you're pretty forward thinking on this I haven't seen a lot of businesses like really lean into building custom gpts to really make the most of their their intellectual capital their processes and methodologies. Now that we've had this milestone here of creating this custom gpt that builds scenarios. What are some future things now that you've had a taste of like what can happen here. What are you thinking for the future of yourself and for ascent growth partners. 38:53.12 Saar Ben_Attar And. 39:01.42 Saar Ben_Attar It's great I mean the one that we are already starting to kind of put the building blocks on and and I think for me this would be kind of be the marriage between the qualitative and benefits of of generative Ai and some of the more quantitative tools. And that is if we have now reduced the the time it took to create scenarios from a couple of weeks to a couple of hours you know well beyond a 10 x factor. Well beyond that could we do the same with one of the more intricate. Difficult and sometimes frustrating activities that marketers get involved in and that is finding the opportunity and sizing it. It's 1 thing to say I can explore into the future and I can identify an opportunity. But what is that opportunity. Worth. 39:48.22 danchez Um, yeah. 39:55.56 Saar Ben_Attar What is the size of the market. Not just what it is now where you have only cursory information very often. What is it likely to be 5 years from now and the answer generally today is well it depends it depends how things pan out but imagine once you've got the scenario sketched you then ask the next question which is I really like this particular opportunity area. 40:04.60 danchez Yeah. 40:15.21 Saar Ben_Attar I can see us developing an offering in this space. What would be the market worth of that. What would be the size of the market. How do we quantify that over the next five years and where the major shifts going to take place because that starts to get marketers into the a. Decision-making space of investments of upfront you know and capital allocation and then we're starting out to play with how generative ai and some other ai tools that are that are based on on on you know. 40:35.66 danchez Um, yeah. 40:50.58 Saar Ben_Attar Collecting information from various databases and and conglomerating it together if we bring those two together I think we'll have within the next few months a marketet sizing tool that again, we'll have at 10 x factor that will be able to give those answers a. And again, those answers are for the conversation. Those are triggering now marketers say what could I do with this if you knew that a particular segment could be worth that much say 3 years from now based on the scenario you've now sketched and that's something it's not saying in your current business when I'll bet you. And and and if you could say I've just spotted that and I could now trace the the 5 6 7 10 fold increase in valuation. How much is that worth and for me that gets me excited now we can marry the quantitative and the qualitative. 41:40.12 danchez Yeah, that would be exciting. It might be possible. Is it possible to do manually already do some does your firm or other consulting firms have a process of evaluating the potential size of an opportunity. 41:57.57 Saar Ben_Attar Um, so one hundred percent so so it's kind of it's it's it's partly manual. So what happens at the moment and and we certainly do this in ah in our firm is you will generally use manually partly manually. 41:59.98 danchez That's just done manually now or through excel or something. Yeah. 42:14.63 Saar Ben_Attar The customer's data in order to infer what that future market valuation would be. It's It's generally ah a cumbersome process. It involves a lot of manual work. It is prone to error and very often what gets lost in the process. 42:15.27 danchez And. 42:27.97 danchez Are. 42:32.37 Saar Ben_Attar Particularly at a micro levelvel are those logical links people will make assumptions human beings. Unfortunately we are very good at making assumptions and as a marketer or as a Ceo or any executive you wouldn't have visibility of those assumptions to the degree that you think you do. You you give visibility into the macro assumptions. But the minute we get into the microlayer. You actually don't know what assumptions people are making when they go well I think this market is going to grow by 35 % based on this data and what ai helps us to do is helps us to understand our own creative leaps. Even when it comes to something like market sizing opportunity sizing and that's where I think again machine and and humans could play together well and become more creative as a result so that's the x for it that we're in it exists now in terms of a process. But it is cumbersome. It's prone to error. It's prone to human bias and I think we can improve that significantly through this process. 43:32.71 danchez Yeah I mean if there's ah if there's a proven process for it already then chances are Ai can do it too because that's at least with the current tech. That's that's really all we're doing here is we're mapping Ai to to proven processes and therefore we can have a reasonable expectation. 43:46.60 Saar Ben_Attar Exactly. 43:52.91 danchez Ah, being able to do as well or close to just as well as what a human would do in its ability to ration out the tiny baby steps to to see that project all the way through. Um. 44:00.87 Saar Ben_Attar Well then it's it's a great great point we do. But I think we do 1 more thing with with including generative Ai at this stage. There'll be other forms of Ai that will join us in this process over time. But for now generative Ai and that is that we also. 44:10.88 danchez Oh yeah. 44:19.44 Saar Ben_Attar Not just mimic the human process I think we enhance it because some of the logical and creative links that generative vi helps us to to or puts in front of us helps us to challenge the process itself and that's where we get to a better process and I think that's a huge benefit. 44:22.60 danchez Yes. 44:38.93 Saar Ben_Attar Because often we are unaware of the both the logical and the commercial gaps in our process. How often do we underestimate opportunities because of that if I take you obviously to the the most obvious one the famous ones of you know Ibm and in their view of personal computing. 44:42.63 danchez Yes. 44:58.86 Saar Ben_Attar In the early nineteen eighty s I write to very recent ones and in in my book that was published recently challenges I speak about the example of of Elon Musk and how he dismissed only a few years ago by d as a worthy competitor in in the battery electric vehicle space in his rationale for it full of human biases was very poor design. Their poor designers therefore I assume. Their ability to creatively overcome challenges in things like the density of batteries or arrive at breakthroughs at in battery engineering wouldn't be there. They can't even design a damn car as well as we do and guess what happened Byd did exactly the opposite and I dedicate an entire chapter in my book. 45:51.33 danchez Yeah. 45:52.78 Saar Ben_Attar To the BYDTesla match and it's still an ongoing match. It's still an open one but the kind of leaps that b id were able to do were incredible. Um, so so so that's I think part of the benefit is being able to to to overcome some of these human biases. 45:56.45 danchez Um, yeah. 46:09.70 danchez Yeah, being able to challenge the assumptions or at least make clear what the assumptions are so that we can actually evaluate it more clearly makes a lot of sense because if Elon musk is making massive bias problems and he's he's got a pretty damn good track record of being able to forecast and predict the future I mean he wouldn't be as wealthy as he is if he. 46:15.72 Saar Ben_Attar Exactly. 46:29.30 danchez Didn't have a pretty drawn good sense of what's going to be or what's possible. Ah so with that I'm just excited for where Ai is going hence I have the whole show about it. But thank you sorry so much for joining me on this episode. It's been fantastic to learn from you build something with you. 46:44.12 Saar Ben_Attar Um, started. 46:48.91 danchez And I look forward to continuing to see where this thing goes. 46:50.15 Saar Ben_Attar Awesome! Thank you for having me on your show and thank you for kind of venturing us into this such a worthy conversation and I hope it's valuable for for the many marketers. All there are kind of wondering. What could I do next with generative Ai. 47:04.15 danchez Absolutely.